( > at beginning of lines mean quoting, and phrases after them are mostly not mine)
i have posted at 2012-07-03 08:40 UTC (12:40 am MSK):
i also think there are no cases in tukic languages and probably also in most of finno-ugric languages, also in other uralic and altaic langauges.
what is called case ending in indoeuropean and semitic languages is clearly divided from prepositions by that prepositions are before word, and cases are after word (case endings are at end of words, after main part of word),
and second, less clear division is by that
prepositions are not modified for different words, while cases look differently for different words, (this second rule has little exceptions, for example, english ‘s case suffix, it alway is same “s”, and russian “о” preposition may be different for different words: “о”, “об”, “обо”).
while in turkic languages there are no prepositions,
almost no suffixes that differ for different words, such largely as in indoeuropoean languages, for example, in russian, genitiv “suffix” may be “i”, “a”, “”, “ey”, “ogo”, “ih”, etc, also all other cases, while in turkic languages they differ not such strongly, but just are of little difference: “non”, “nin”, “don”, “din”, for example, for so called “genitiv”.
no, the stronger difference from case endings is that
turkic case suffixes are agglutinative/clitic,
but case in indo-european are inflectional (and may be fusional), that means, main part of word of many types of nouns, always used with case ending, even in nominative case, though some class of nouns can be used with “empty” case ending, in some cases, and empty case ending can mean different case, for exampel, “stol”, and “knig” in russian both has empty case endings, but “stol” is nominative case, “knig” is genitiv case of plural form.
in turkic languages, “main part” of word, (ie with “empty” ie no ending) is just a noun in nominative case, and all case suffixes are just like prepositions that are written after word instead of before, so, they are postpositions. but they differ slightly depending on word, as i said, “non”, “nin”, etc, same happen also with prepositions in indoeuropean languages, as i said, “o”, “ob”, “obo” in russian, also there are other examples: “v”, “vo”, “k”, “ko”. but they both, prepositions and postpositions, do not change word, to what they connect, but cases are not so, as i said, they do not just set near nominative case of noun, but they modify its last part (ending), so, this is why they are called cases in languages they are there truely, they can be named/called “casitive” languages, and this languages, for example, indoeuropeans, are called “inflectional” and this inflectionality is in cases. in turkic languages there are no such thing. and so called case suffixes which are written connectedly, together with noun as one word, like prefixes, and so called postpositions, which are written separately from word to which they apply, in modern turkic orthographies, they should not classified be as 2 things, but they should be classified together, as of 1 class, and all things in it are can be called suffix, postfix, posposition, all this posfixes, i will call them postfixes, differ from others slightly with different properties. for example, “cha” suffix do not get stress on itself: kita’pcha (it is not called/named/classified as case suffix in modern official grammar, but rather as suffix that creates new lexem/meaning, but in fact, its meaning is constant, so it is grammatical thing) , while “qa” gets stress on itself: “kitapqa’ “, most of them get stress on itself, only several don’t, one more that doesn’t: “bilan”: ‘kita’pbilan” (it is written separately in modern orthography).
but so called postpositions and so called cases of modern turkic languages sometimes have a feature that is also in true “casitive” languages: a preposition always require a case of word, to wich it apply, that is in russian: “o knige’ – “about book”, where “book” must be in prepositional case, and for example, while “I” pronoun is used in english after preposition, it must be in accusative case “about me”, but pronouns in english are like exception from all nouns, by this behavior, also smae feature is there in tatar language: “with me” is not “minbilan” but it is “minimbilan” ie, so called genitiv case is required, but that is exception for pronouns, like in english. also there is a postposition, maybe there also others, that require a so called case suffix to be applied to word to which it apply: “taba”, which means “in direction of”, require suffix of so called dative case: “maktapka taba” (maktap is school).
2012/7/3, Mikel Forcada :
> Thanks a lot, guys!
> I am absolutely persuaded that calling these things cases is wrong.
> There is no “nominative” case, but the absolute form of the word. And
> then the genitive, accusative,etc.. are clitic postpositions that
> attach to the last member of the NP, clearly a noun. I have argued
> about this with Basques for ages.
then i have posted (more…)