Archive for the ‘etymology’ Category

there are no cases in turkic and finno-ugric languages

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=29490187 :

( > at beginning of lines mean quoting, and phrases after them are mostly not mine)

i have posted at 2012-07-03 08:40 UTC (12:40 am MSK):

hello.
i also think there are no cases in tukic languages and probably also in most of finno-ugric languages, also in other uralic and altaic langauges.
because:

what is called case ending in indoeuropean and semitic languages is clearly divided from prepositions by that prepositions are before word, and cases are after word (case endings are at end of words, after main part of word),
and second, less clear division is by that
prepositions are not modified for different words, while cases look differently for different words, (this second rule has little exceptions, for example, english ‘s case suffix, it alway is same “s”, and russian “о” preposition may be different for different words: “о”, “об”, “обо”).

while in turkic languages there are no prepositions,

almost no suffixes that differ for different words, such largely as in indoeuropoean languages, for example, in russian, genitiv “suffix” may be “i”, “a”, “”, “ey”, “ogo”, “ih”, etc, also all other cases, while in turkic languages they differ not such strongly, but just are of little difference: “non”, “nin”, “don”, “din”, for example, for so called “genitiv”.

no, the stronger difference from case endings is that
turkic case suffixes are agglutinative/clitic,
but case in indo-european are inflectional (and may be fusional), that means, main part of word of many types of nouns, always used with case ending, even in nominative case, though some class of nouns can be used with “empty” case ending, in some cases, and empty case ending can mean different case, for exampel, “stol”, and “knig” in russian both has empty case endings, but “stol” is nominative case, “knig” is genitiv case of plural form.

in turkic languages, “main part” of word, (ie with “empty” ie no ending) is just a noun in nominative case, and all case suffixes are just like prepositions that are written after word instead of before, so, they are postpositions. but they differ slightly depending on word, as i said, “non”, “nin”, etc, same happen also with prepositions in indoeuropean languages, as i said, “o”, “ob”, “obo” in russian, also there are other examples: “v”, “vo”, “k”, “ko”. but they both, prepositions and postpositions, do not change word, to what they connect, but cases are not so, as i said, they do not just set near nominative case of noun, but they modify its last part (ending), so, this is why they are called cases in languages they are there truely, they can be named/called “casitive” languages, and this languages, for example, indoeuropeans, are called “inflectional” and this inflectionality is in cases. in turkic languages there are no such thing. and so called case suffixes which are written connectedly, together with noun as one word, like prefixes, and so called postpositions, which are written separately from word to which they apply, in modern turkic orthographies, they should not classified be as 2 things, but they should be classified together, as of 1 class, and all things in it are can be called suffix, postfix, posposition, all this posfixes, i will call them postfixes, differ from others slightly with different properties. for example, “cha” suffix do not get stress on itself: kita’pcha (it is not called/named/classified as case suffix in modern official grammar, but rather as suffix that creates new lexem/meaning, but in fact, its meaning is constant, so it is grammatical thing) , while “qa” gets stress on itself: “kitapqa’ “, most of them get stress on itself, only several don’t, one more that doesn’t: “bilan”: ‘kita’pbilan” (it is written separately in modern orthography).
but so called postpositions and so called cases of modern turkic languages sometimes have a feature that is also in true “casitive” languages: a preposition always require a case of word, to wich it apply, that is in russian: “o knige’ – “about book”, where “book” must be in prepositional case, and for example, while “I” pronoun is used in english after preposition, it must be in accusative case “about me”, but pronouns in english are like exception from all nouns, by this behavior, also smae feature is there in tatar language: “with me” is not “minbilan” but it is “minimbilan” ie, so called genitiv case is required, but that is exception for pronouns, like in english. also there is a postposition, maybe there also others, that require a so called case suffix to be applied to word to which it apply: “taba”, which means “in direction of”, require suffix of so called dative case: “maktapka taba” (maktap is school).

2012/7/3, Mikel Forcada :
> Thanks a lot, guys!
>

>
> I am absolutely persuaded that calling these things cases is wrong.
> There is no “nominative” case, but the absolute form of the word. And
> then the genitive, accusative,etc.. are clitic postpositions that
> attach to the last member of the NP, clearly a noun. I have argued
> about this with Basques for ages.
>

then i have posted (more…)

similar tatar words to most frequent english words, 2nd post

previous post about this is http://qdb.wp.kukmara-rayon.ru/2010/03/04/similar-tatar-words-to-most-frequent-english-words/.

11. what. in tatar it is “ni”, “nerse”. unsimilar. possible relation with “wata” in dialect means “this” and russian “vot” means same and tatar “bu”, “mon” means same. >2010-03-07 18:58: also tatar “mina” means “this”.<

12. is. in tatar it is “i” and “bul”. so there is a similar word. where is “i” in tatar: “idi” – “was” and “were”, “ikan” – “was” and “were”, “isa” – “if be”, may be “indi” – “already”, “ayyi”, “iye” – “yes”, “imis” – >2010-03-12 11:02: “allegedly”, <“people say that is”. related word in russian is “yest” – means “is”, “are”.

13. in. in tatar there are similar/related words: may be “in” – “to sink down”, “ic” – “inner side”. “in” in tatar is “icinde” or “icinge”.

14. this. look 4 – the and 7 – that. also this is similar to “suso” in tatar means “this”.

15. know. in tatar it is “bil”. unsimilar. >2010-3-7 19:00 : see russian “kniga” and tatar “kinaga” probably from russian mean “book”.<

16. I’m – look 2nd word “I” and form of “m” 12th word “is” and that this form is with sound “m” which in tatar also means grammatical “1st person”, see also 10th word “me”.

17. for. in tatar it is “ochon”, “ga”. unsimilar.

18. no. in tatar “ma” and “tugil”. unsimilar. but there are similar things in tatar in persian words: “nahaq”. also something may be from russian: “ni” used as russian “ni”. >20:36 : “no” sounds some little like “ma”…<

19. have. in tatar it is “hujaso bul”, “iyasi bul”. unsimilar, but there are lot of related words in tatar language, also in english language itself and other languages: “qap” in tatar – “to take in mouth”/”nip”/”bite”(?), “qap” – a package, “hapnut” in russian – same meaning as of tatar “qap”, “havat” in russian – “to eat”, “havchik” – “meal”,”food”, but these >19:00 : russian words< are some slang words i think or dialect. also “huja” in tatar – “owner”, this word may be from persian, i think. “qama” in tatar – “surround”, “encircle”. i had said about these words as very big, i think even it is biggest, group of words, i had said here: http://qdb.wp.kukmara-rayon.ru/2009/07/07/etymology-of-earth-and-great-groups-of-words/ : “Another great group of words (that (also) i have found/have found myself) are “sap”-”qap” group of words which appeared from sound of closing something or stepping foot to earth or stone.” and in my notebook, i have written words of that group, for example here: http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmagif/qaradaft12.gif >20:34: open from http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmaindex.htm<.

20. my. in tatar it is “minim”, “m”. see 10th word “me”.

so, which has similar words in tatar language of second 10 most frequent english words: 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 19th, 20th, so, 60%.

some words there and in 1st 10 words should be accounted as same words. let i try count all first 20 words and take in account forms of words. which have similar words in tatar language: 1 you, 4th the, 5th a, 8th it, 9th of, 10th me, 12th is, 13th in, 19th have, so, can say, 98 of 20, 4540%… there i have not accounted “that”, “this”, “I’m”, “my”. if count them, as i use this list of most frequent words, they are 1312 of 20, 6560%. anyway this is not just by chance, i think, somebody said that it can be only/just that. this is not said only by me. there is nostratic language family known by scientists. except that i think words travel across languages >17:05: and affect words of other languages< always, and all languages are connected to action sounds similar way.

2010-03-06 8:06 : i do not count now “you”, I have explained that in the previous post of this theme/topic/article.

similar tatar words to most frequent english words

similar tatar words to most frequent english words. i will use http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists/TV/2006/1-1000 .

1. you. in tatar it is siz or sin. all sounds of it can be corresponding: y-s, o-i, w-n. also see these words, languages geographically from tatar to english, from east to west: sin in tatar, ton in udmurt, ty in russian and thou in english. >2010-3-7 19:02 : also similar with russian “vy” that means “you”.<

2. I. in tatar it is min, unsimilar. a word similar to I is in russian language: ya. i say about russian because it is geographically between english and tatar languages.

3. to. in tatar it is ga, unsimilar. a word similar to tatar "ga" is in russian: k, and with corresponding sounds to english "to" is in russian "na".

4. the. in tatar it is bu or tigi or ul. one of them is similar: tigi, means "that" and "those". in russian there is "tot", "to", "etot", "eto".

5. a. in tatar it is bir. unsimilar. but this, full form of it an, may be in tatar words "min" and "sin" which mean "I" and "thou", "in" part of them, may mean "one". also can be related with "ul" which mean he/she/it/that. also see russian "mena", "mne" etc which are like tatar "minni", "minga" and "on" which is like tatar "ul".

6. and. in tatar it is "ham" or "wa" or "bilan" or "da". unsimilar. very little like "da". where tatar "da" is used: "bir yoz da bir" – "one hundred and one". also there is "da" is in russian: "ty da ya" (you and me). also there is another meaning of tatar "da" – "too": "min da" – "me too"/"and me". also russian "too" sounds quite like that: "toje".

7. that. in tatar it is "ul" or "sul" or "tigi". may be related with "sul" and "tigi". also there is russian "tot" as i said in 4th item of this list.

8. it. in tatar it is ul. sounds correspond: i-u, t-l. also see russian "on", "eto".

9. of. in tatar it is i/in/isi and nin. unsimilar but may have some relation… main form of i/in/isi is in. sounds of "in" and "of" little correspond: o-i, f-n. also in english last "f" disappear: o'clock. there are 2 variants that are more like both english "of" and tatar "in" in russian language: "van-in" – "of vanea", "saf-in" – "of safa", "ivan-ov" – "of ivan".

10. me. in tatar it is minni, minnin. similar, related. also there are russian words "menea", "mne", etc.

so, how much of first 10 words – 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th. so 760%.>2010-03-06 7:56 : regarding comments of muckefuck in livejournal i do not count “you”. and by the way, after he said “you” was “eow” and *”iwwiz”, I have noticed that “you” is like russian “vy” with same meaning.<

i had said my plan to use most frequent words to search words with relation here: in comment in http://community.livejournal.com/linguaphiles/4651033.html and at http://qdb.wp.kukmara-rayon.ru/2009/07/02/several-words-that-are-similar-in-english-and-tatar-languages/#comment-2056 , against a comment that there may be lot of similar words by chance.

2010-03-05 16:51 utc+3 : continue: http://qdb.wp.kukmara-rayon.ru/2010/03/05/similar-tatar-words-to-most-frequent-english-words-2nd-post/.

Etymology of “earth” and “great groups of words”

I have posted this in forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=7376707&postcount=74. i add at 22:05 (utc+4, summer moscow time): this post is deleted again in the web-forum. i had written it several times after post #73 in Etymology: Earth topic and it was deleted several times with leaving place of post and reason, now they are deleted completely.
Hello. In tatar(a turkic) language it is “jir” (written “җир”). It is quite similar to “terra” and “ge”. There are also words “yir”(written “ер” pronunciated “йыр”) and “yor” (written “йөр”, means “walk”, “go”). “yir” means to go pushing something to right and left side by bottom part and may be right and left sides and may be destroying that material, can be used with melt(?) erth, mud(?) and with water (to go in not deep water) and with grass and with grass that cutten off and lay on earth and anything that is such/enough soft . “y” and “j” sounds often replaced in modern tatar language in different places and people. May be that “jir” is from sound of going through such material and also it is like sound of ploughing, plowing(?). “yir” can also become ” ‘ard ” tis way: beginning “y” becomes ” ‘ ” (hamza, written in arabic “ء” and this sound is in french language as i know: d’… . ) and very old and common “t” suffix added and made noun/past participle from verb. And yir-t meant “what appears after ‘yir’ing” and it is earth which indeed become visible itself only if to push to sides grass or if plough or dig top layer of earth with grass and roots of grass. What I think about t suffix: it has modified to forms “n” and “l” also. “-ed”,”-et”,”-ne” makes past simple and past participle in english: lef-t, go-ne, “-do”-“-to”-“-di”-“-ti” makes form like past simple or present perfect in tatar: yor-do, “-l” makes form like past simple or present perfect in russian: sdela-l, dela-l. also that “yir” word is in a great group of words with meanings like strew, comb, spread, open and derived from them and pronunciations like tar, sar, taz, saz, nar, yar, naz, yaz, tes, res etc. For example may be english words say, sail, sale, sand are in this group. Some of these words i have collected in my notebook: — – i delete address this time because moderator says it is self promotion but i still think it is link to material , you can browse other pages and djvu format version of it from — page on that site and there is mirror of the site address of which i do not post this time .
Words with meaning “red” could be derived from words meaning “earth” as color of earth. Among them also tatar “saro”, english “yellow”, russian “zeltiy” which mean “yellow”; and english “gray” and tatar “soro” and russian “seriy” which mean “grey”; and russian “korichneviy” which means “brown”; and english “red” and tatar “qizil” and russian “krasniy” which mean “red”. By the way words meaning “green” are also in that group of words but they are as color of grass and words meaning grass are in that group together with words meaning hair etc like them because they are something that spread their branches. (Hair is “chach” in tatar, grass is “chiram” in tatar and “trava” in russian, green is “zeleniy” in russian and “yashil” in tatar.)
By the way this group of word are together because all they have sound of t-r-d-z-s-y-n-l group of sounds as first and last-third consonant and some almost any vowel as second-middle vowel. also that consonants can modify to k-g-q from s-ch and from y and can modify to w from y and q-g and then w can modify to b-p-f-v , words with b-p-f-v derived such way from d-z-r-l-n are rare, i think.
If to take to account that group of sounds, ‘ar part of ‘ard and ear part of earth are in that “great group of words”. Also rd part of ‘ard and rth part of earth can be root part of them and they also in that group of words.
Another great group of words (that (also) i have found/have found myself) are “sap”-“qap” group of words which appeared from sound of closing something or stepping foot to earth or stone.
I will post this also to my english blog link to which i do not dare to post because moderator already has deleted one my post.
Please do not delete my links (or post)… Now there is no link….

End of post as it is at the web-forum.

You can see that great group of words like “ser” at qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmagif/qaradaft50.gif. You can browse pages of that notebook in gif and djvu formats at http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmaindex.htm. There is mirror of this site at http://qdb.narod.ru/.

several words that are similar in english and tatar languages

you can see them also in http://qdb.narod.ru/tattyazma/qaradaft03_0001.djvu or http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazma/qaradaft03_0001.djvu or http://qdb.narod.ru/tattyazmagif/qaradaft03.gif or http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmagif/qaradaft03.gif and also on other pages of that notebook. it is possible to browse pages of it in http://qdb.narod.ru/tattyazmaindex.htm or http://qdb.110mb.com/tattyazmaindex.htm.

be – bul- , golden – alton

in the next page:

slimy – silagay,

english: spit-spew-sputter-sprinkle-spray – tatar: chapchira, sip .

degree-daraja (daraja is probably arabic word)

english: day-dawn – tatar: tan – russian: day.

get – jit

pass- bas,bar – russian dobratsa – english/russian/tatar port – russian pol and pad-

bring – bir – russian брать(but meaning is to another direction)

cheek – russian shcheka – tatar chiga(means temple) – russian shkura (skin) – skin – tatar chik (boundary)

hand – qul

quit – kit

hack – qaq

fade – bit-,bat- – russian pad-

chop – chap

curse – qarga

draw – tart

dust – tuzan

damp – dm

utter – uta (though may be it is new word)

morn,born – boron